There seems to be some things wrong with the audio, so I’m including the transcript of our conversation here. To check out Morgan’s blog , visit
https://morganosmith.blog/
Our Conversation
Welcome to the podcast and I'm really excited to have Morgan here today. We met like a couple like a month ago at Web Summit and we had a really good conversation about spirituality and awakening and also about the app that he's working on. So I'm excited to dive deeper into his experience today. So just to start off, can you introduce yourself and tell us like a little bit about you and your background?
Morgan O. Smith (00:32.656)
a little bit about me. My name is Morgan Smith. I'm a former stand-up comedian. Turned from a bunch of things. Youth worker, spiritual teacher, executive director of a nonprofit organization called Bodhi Mental Care and Wellness. I'm the co-founder of K-More Center for Innovative Developments. And I am the founder.
of energy technologies, which is a brainwave entrainment program to help people evolve emotionally, mentally, and spiritually. So those are some of the things, just a small percent of what I do.
Angel W (01:20.014)
That's awesome. That's a lot of stuff. How do you balance all these different things that you do?
Morgan O. Smith (01:25.43)
I just don't do everything every day. Things like two at a time, two at a time. So sometimes things lack a little bit because I'm juggling so many different things. But for the most part it works. At least with my brain, how my brain is set up. I'm not very structured so I run around and I just get things done until I think I've covered everything.
Angel W (01:28.523)
so you'd kind of like...
Angel W (01:43.256)
Yeah.
Angel W (01:49.784)
So which one, like what are you most excited about right now?
Morgan O. Smith (01:59.506)
What am I most excited about right now? I can't say which one. I'm excited about everything that I'm working on right now. I also have a blog. I'm also an author of a book called Bhodi in the Brain. I have a copy right here, little playlist plug right here. So this came out about two years ago. I'm working on another book right now, which is at the ending of the editing process, which is called Leaving Miss Madigan.
Angel W (02:06.402)
Mm-hmm.
Angel W (02:14.678)
nice yeah
Morgan O. Smith (02:29.393)
I don't know when that's coming out, but probably soon. We'll see, but it's called Leaving Miss Madigan. So that's the second book that I'm working on. I was also part of another book project years ago, like ten years ago. It was a book that was inspired by my quotes that I wrote back then, which is called The God Behind the God by Arianne Herbert. So it's another book that I'm involved in. And there's tons of other books that I'll be coming out with in the future. My goal is to come up with 13 books, so...
Angel W (02:52.526)
Mm-hmm.
Morgan O. Smith (02:59.537)
So far I've been covering two and I have another 11 books to go.
Angel W (02:59.982)
you
Angel W (03:05.99)
Interesting. So I guess going back to before all these things, like, was there a point where you, how did you figure out these projects like before they emerged? Did you have like an idea of what you wanted to create or you had a moment where you figured out like this is your purpose? Or how did you realize that these are the things you want to do?
Morgan O. Smith (03:30.691)
I don't know. Some of these ideas came out of...
certain peak experiences that kind of pushed me and motivated me to want to put these things together. K-MOR came out of, is one of those projects. But I was, K-MOR, my other half, Kata, we both had some peak experiences that led to the development, to the creation of K-MOR. Bodhi, Bodhi which means awakening.
that has to do with Buddha becoming awakened under the Bodhi tree. It's also short for the name Bodhisattva and so on. So the nonprofit organization that I just launched is inspired by that. It's inspired by a spiritual awakening that I had and it's still happening. So, but it's inspired by...
The most profound awakening I ever had, was, that took place, which I told you before, which took place December 14th of 2019. So Bodhi Mental Care and Wellness is inspired by that. But Bodhi Mental Care and Wellness is not a spiritual organization per se. It's actually more a neurofeedback and meditation organization to provide free neurofeedback training for youth and families living in marginalized communities.
But that inspiration came out of that awakening. The book, Bodhi and the Brain, is inspired by my meditation program that I developed, which I developed back in 2010. That also came from awakening, from an awakening, awakenings that I had back then.
Morgan O. Smith (05:21.841)
beginnings in brainwave entrainment, which I started 22 years ago, which I got into 20 years ago, which became my regular meditation practice. And that's responsible for all the things that's happened. It's one of the things that's responsible for all the things that happened, but I say it's like the main thing. the energy is an inspiration from that. energy is a combination of low carrier frequency brainwave entrainment plus the
the works of a mathematician by the name of Marco Rodin who came up with this theory or this theorem called vortex-based mathematics which he claims to be the mathematical algorithm of the universe itself. So I learned his methods, his theory, and I found a way to apply it to sound. So I took his theory and I applied it to sound, but in this case, binaural beat, brainwave entrainment sound, and that's how UNIGI was born.
So all these things were inspired by different types of awakenings, because there are different types, and we can explore that too. That there isn't just one type of awakening. There are different types, but there is a main one that could take place that covers all spectrums of all forms of awakening all in one. That could happen. But many times when people are talking about awakenings, most times they're talking about different things, different variations of an awakening. And what some people call an awakening may not be an awakening.
Some of them are peak experiences. So I would say not all peak experiences are awakenings, but all awakenings are peak experiences.
Angel W (06:58.798)
So going back to the one where you were speaking about in 2019, which led to Bodhi, mental health and wellness. What was that awakening? Because you said that was the biggest one,
Morgan O. Smith (07:08.741)
that body, mental care and wellness, yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (07:18.287)
was the biggest one I've ever had. Yeah, that was the biggest one. Not only was it the biggest one, but every peak experience and every spiritual awakening, because I've done, I've had maybe about fifty-five, sixty of these events that taken place in my life. Well, within the last twenty-two years. But this was the biggest, but not only that, it covered all forms of awakenings all in one within this...
this one huge burst of... BODY, if you want to call it that.
can call it nirvana you can call it muktsha I easily prefer the word muktsha but it was both muktsha and nirvana it was both them together but I'm more of an Advaita Vedanta type of individual so a lot of the things that I refer to may have to do with Advaita Vedanta but I also use a lot of Buddhist references and stuff too
So like in the case of Bodhi, Bodhi is a Buddhist reference, it's not an Advaita Vedanta reference. But I related to that word. I guess I just liked the way how the words sounded and it really well when it came up with the title, Bodhi in the Brain. So it fit really well with that. So I do use a lot of concepts and references, but I'm more on the side of Advaita Vedanta. But in this experience, all these people are the same. What is different from my standpoint?
Angel W (08:22.094)
Mm.
Angel W (08:50.003)
could you say that again? You got cut off a little bit. The last part.
Morgan O. Smith (08:53.265)
Oh, did I? No, I saying that all Eastern philosophies are all correct from my standpoint. So I don't have a bias per se towards one philosophy. They're all true. It just depends on what perspective we're talking about.
Angel W (08:59.605)
Okay.
Angel W (09:08.758)
So what is Advaita Padanta? Or I forgot how you said it.
Morgan O. Smith (09:13.923)
Advaita Vedanta. Advaita Vedanta is... Advaita means non-duality. Vedanta is... It comes from the school of Vedanta. So Advaita Vedanta is one of the schools of Vedanta. So there's a few schools of Vedanta that are non-dual and Advaita Vedanta is one of them.
Angel W (09:19.098)
huh.
Angel W (09:26.624)
I see.
Angel W (09:33.24)
So to someone who doesn't know anything about Buddhism and spirituality, how would you describe awakening in general? Like, what is it like?
Morgan O. Smith (09:43.877)
Hmm. What is it? It's waking up to your true nature. So when I say, when I use the term awakening, because a lot of people use this term, it gets used around very loosely. But when I use the term awakening, I'm talking about, if you want to use a reference, if you want to reference that to your Buddha nature, wakes up to itself. So you're the essence of who you actually are, because this is not who you actually are. This is, this is, this is the character that you're playing.
But the essence of who you actually are wakes up to itself. So when I use the, when I refer to the term awakening, I'm talking about the thing, the essence of who you actually are, which is if you want to say God itself, you can call it universe, you can call it spirit, you can call it, you can call it, I like to call it Brahman or Brahan or Prat-Brahhan. So like people would say Parabrahman wakes up to its true, wakes up to itself.
So it's not you that wakes up. It's not you the individual that wakes up. Your essence of who you are wakes up to itself. And that's what I would call an awakening.
Angel W (10:52.986)
And what are the... and you mentioned, you know, the projects that came out of it, like... Do you... and you've talked to a lot of people who've had awakenings. What are usually the things that change after the awakening experience?
Morgan O. Smith (11:09.105)
Well, it's different for everyone because everyone's coming from a different... People have different levels of karma. People have different genetic backgrounds, neurological backgrounds. Everything, genes, everything, culture, all these different things play a role. Also, you have your character traits that are built in. You have your ego. All these things are built in. So when someone has an awakening, what changes? There's a lot of argument on that. For some people...
nothing seems to change and then for other people it could be behavior that changes certain types of behaviors that change it could be the way how you look at reality changes that should be the case if you have an awakening if you you have an awakening that doesn't change i'll say that you had a peak experience you probably didn't have an awakening but the way how you view reality how you perceive reality we
Morgan O. Smith (12:15.161)
change to some degree. So something should definitely change if one has an awakening as opposed to somebody having a peak experience. But it could be behavior, could be, you know, it could be action, it could be, again, the way how you look at things, the way how you perceive things, it could be the way how you feel. You know, some people can have an awakening, and then they have a love for all living things, living and nonliving things, that could happen. For me,
When it first happened to me back in 2008, the thing that changed for me was my diet. When it happened to me, months later, I gave up meat. So I haven't touched meat since 2008. So that's how many years now? We're in 2025. I always forget the math. 17 years, probably.
Angel W (12:50.158)
17 years.
Angel W (13:01.656)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (13:06.417)
17 years I haven't touched meat or anything like that. I'm not saying that if you have an awakening you'll drop meat. That's not necessarily the case. But for me, that's what happened. So I've lost it. I lost the desire to eat meat. That type of stuff. There's a number of things that happen too. But that's like a major thing, especially in my culture. To not eat meat is like pretty much a sin. But I gave it up. But it's not something that I tried to do. It just happened naturally. So certain things...
Angel W (13:13.059)
Yeah.
Angel W (13:24.408)
What was the realization you had for dropping meat? What happened? What was the awakening that led to that?
Morgan O. Smith (13:34.731)
After an awakening, it doesn't take effort to drop them, they just drop on its own.
Morgan O. Smith (13:51.441)
Well, in that first one that took place, which was the spring of 2008, that's when I had the realization that I was absolutely everything. Of course, now I wouldn't say it was absolutely everything because the experience that happened in 2019 was the absolute of the absolute. But back then, based on what I was able to, my brain and nervous system was able to handle, I saw that as the absolute. And that included me being all life forms, which included animals, and it included...
tiles and insects and microscopic creatures and all of that. the experience that I had, I was all those things at once, simultaneously. So after that, it could be stemmed to a sense of trauma that anytime I looked at meat, I just couldn't eat it. Even though I highly enjoy meat. But after that moment, I felt guilty for eating it. And as time went on, it took a few months because this experience happened in January, February, March.
It happened in March, I believe it was in March it happened. And I gave up meat. By September, I was totally off meat. So that September of that same year was totally off meat. I've never looked back since. And now I'm vegan, so. But again, it doesn't mean that you have to become vegan or vegetarian to follow that path. There are many awakened people who still eat meat. That's just a personal thing that happened to me. So it's not necessarily a given.
Angel W (15:05.037)
What about after your biggest awakening, what were the shifts in how you saw reality?
Morgan O. Smith (15:29.285)
Well after the biggest awakening I became vegan. I've only been vegan for the past five years. Alright, but in that realization, I really don't know how to explain it, but in that realization I really, really came to the realization that I was absolutely everything. was everything in existence, everything out of existence. I was past, present and future. I was every human being, every alien, every...
animal, every bacteria, every virus, every microscopic creature. was everything quantum. was everything string theory. I was everything micro, everything macro. I was every country, every planet, every solar system, every galaxy, every universe, everything, everything, everything, absolutely everything. Everything, every black hole, every big bang, every big boom, every star.
Angel W (16:05.518)
Mm.
Angel W (16:19.896)
What did that feel like when you knew that you were everything or had that realization?
Morgan O. Smith (16:28.227)
Everything. Absolutely everything. And absolutely nothing at all at the same time.
Angel W (16:34.094)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (16:41.563)
hard to explain what I felt because it wasn't me that felt anything. I was, from an ego standpoint, was pretty much dead. Because what I was experiencing was an ego death. So Morgan himself didn't experience anything. There was no Morgan to realize anything. So that's why I say that it wakes up to itself. I really mean that it wakes up to itself. Morgan has nothing to do with it from that standpoint. That's not 100 % true, but it's the best way I can say it with words.
That Morgan has nothing to do with it, but Morgan does have everything to do with it because Morgan and angel are equally the same exact thing that wakes up to itself So I've part of the realization when you realize that everything in the universe and outside of the universe is equally Brahman or equally God or equal equally nothingness or equally Let's go all the different names so where before
The first experience that happened back in 2008, you have a realization that you are divine, that you are God. This goes even deeper than that. But in this realization, you realize that you're everything. So not only are you a God and you're separate from the thing that you always assumed that's not God, but everything in the entire universe was equally one and the same with God. Or no God, because even that was true. No God exists, God exists, all of that is true.
and everything that exists within the mind of God was equally God. So, this book is 100 % God. It's not partially God, it's not part of God. That's true too, it is part of God. But it's actually, this is an absolute. This is God. It's just, it appears to be what we may call in the book. But from that standpoint, there was no distinction between anything. And also too in that experience, people always ask, what did I see? I didn't see anything, I was dead.
was eagerly dead. So in that experience, it's nothing to see because everything becomes an absolute non-dual. And if everything is absolutely non-dual, you can't see anything because there's nothing outside of you. Because there are no distinctions between subjective and objective. It's all one singularity. So I saw absolutely nothing. So even though I said I was this and I was that, and I was the trees and I was the grass and I was every blade of grass and I was every
Angel W (18:58.946)
Right. Do you need to have an ego death to have that experience? Because you mentioned that you your ego, right?
Morgan O. Smith (19:04.433)
speck of sand and the list goes on and all that. I didn't see anything. Everything is felt. But it's not felt by you the individual. It's felt by the absolute.
Angel W (19:13.411)
Yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (19:18.885)
Yes, you have to have an ego death to have that experience. But not all, I don't believe that all peak experiences have to have ego death. But there are just, there's also different variations of an ego death. So there's, to me, there's ego dying and there's ego death. So when a lot of people refer to an ego death, they probably didn't have an ego death. Ego death really feels like a death. But you may have the stripping away of the ego. And people do refer to that as an ego death. And you can do that if someone,
Angel W (19:26.412)
Yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (19:47.811)
mentions that I'm not in disagreement with them but this was the moment I really realized what an ego death was because I used the term ego death a lot as well but when I had that experience I truly experienced what an ego death actually was. Ego death really means dying from a psychological standpoint.
Angel W (19:50.2)
So what activity you did prior to the awakening? Like how did it come about?
Morgan O. Smith (20:14.863)
Well, back then, what I still do is I'm always doing my meditation. I'm always doing my neurofeedback. Sorry. I shouldn't say neurofeedback yet. I have to kind of work up to that. But for the last 22 years, which has been over 22 years, I've always did my low carrier frequency brainwave and trainment. UNIGI wasn't created at the time when I started. It was a different program than I was using, which I used for about a good seven years before I switched over to my, my innovative approach to, a low carrier frequency.
But back in 2007, just to give you a little background story, back in 2006, I should say, that's when I started working on this project where I wanted to develop my own form of brainwave entrainment. And it took years for me to figure it out. 2006, I started doing these experiments, trying to make my own version of this entrainment, which eventually I figured out in 2010 when I decided that I was going to vortex-based mathematics with brainwave entrainment.
So when I figured out, when I heard of Marco Rodin in 2008, after the awakening took place, I listened to a four hour talk when he's talking about the number nine and how number nine is the magic number to this or to that or magic, or the number nine is the mathematical equivalent to God and why nine, the prefix and nines are the key to the universe, all that stuff. So I got really caught up in watching
this long, this four hour seminar where he's a workshop where he's breaking down what the number nine is, how it works, how it works mathematically. So I spent the next two years understanding that mathematics before I was able to apply to something. And then one day I figured out how to apply it to sound and that's what I did. But in 2006, True Trial and Error was trying to figure out how to make my own. And I successfully made other brainwave entrainment soundtracks in the past.
But I wanted something that was different than what everybody else was doing and so until when I saw Marco Rhodes work in 2008 That's when I figured that I can possibly blend those two Technologies together. So that's what happened there. So but that project started in 2006, but I started meditating with brainwave and payment in 2003 actually 2002 but I became serious with it 2003
Angel W (22:23.32)
So would you say that brainwave entrainment is the key to how you got all of these awakenings? Because you started this way before your awakenings,
Angel W (22:42.254)
So would you attribute it?
Right.
Okay.
Morgan O. Smith (22:51.481)
Yeah, I started this 2003, so I didn't have my first awakening until 2008.
Yeah, but I would I would believe that is one of the keys. It's not the only key, but it's not the only key, but it's the one that did it for me. And in combination with other things, I'll even explain to you in a bit of all the different combinations. But it's a combination of other things. But brainwave and train with low care frequency brainwave and train with I have to make sure I make that clear, because that's different from brainwave and train with its own thing, which is the main catalyst that I believe that helped lead up to this, even though I do say
Meditation doesn't lead you to awakening. Meditation is the story that we created that led to, that we would say led to meditating. So I'll start, that led to awakening. So I would say that meditation, you may have heard this term many times before, that meditation makes you more, I'll say it again, enlightenment is an accident. Meditation just makes you more accident prone.
Angel W (23:41.486)
Can you say that again?
Angel W (23:48.846)
interesting. That's pretty true.
Morgan O. Smith (23:59.714)
Enlightenment is an accident. Meditation makes you more accident prone.
Morgan O. Smith (24:06.735)
Yeah, so meditation itself doesn't lead to that. Meditation can make you more accessible to when that moment's supposed to strike. It happens all the time. We just miss it most of the times. So it's in our presence all the time. You just have to be open enough to when it does happen that it strikes you. You have to be in the right place at the right time, the right frame of mind. There's a lot of things that comes to play that makes it happen. But most people are in...
Angel W (24:25.996)
What do you mean it's happening all the time? Like are you, what is happening all the time?
Morgan O. Smith (24:34.809)
all these states at the same time to allow that to happen. So meditation can help you prepare for something like that.
Angel W (24:37.794)
Morgan O. Smith (24:46.243)
Enlightenment. Enlightenment is all there is. Right? You're enlightened right now. You're in enlightenment right now as we speak. Just certain things hasn't happened to allow... I'm not speaking for you. I can't speak for you. But certain things just hasn't happened for you to wake up to that.
But it's happening, always around you. So it's always in your midst. It's ready to strike at every time. And it is striking. It's just a matter of you realizing that it's happening. Yeah, so you can't like reach and grab enlightenment. You're always it, you're always in it. You are enlightenment itself. You just have to wake up to it.
Angel W (25:08.078)
What do you think most people who haven't experienced enlightenment, what are some of the faulty beliefs that they have or like illusions that they're living under?
Morgan O. Smith (25:35.537)
Well then, enlightenment means perfection.
Morgan O. Smith (25:40.521)
But enlightenment is not that. Even though everything is perfect, when someone experiences an enlightenment, an enlightening awakening, you realize that everything is perfect. But the human being itself, just because a human being had that experience, because there is also a difference between someone awakening, having an awakening, and someone becoming enlightened. Those are also two different things. But if someone's claiming to be enlightened, the first thing that people may look for is perfection. You're not going to find perfection in any human being.
So some people may say, person can't be enlightened because they're not perfect. They have some flaws. But every human being has flaws. There's no way around that. Even Buddha had flaws. You can't get around that. So enlightenment is not that. But when one becomes enlightened, or if one has an experience, has an enlightening experience, because that happens to most people, a lot of people who have an awakening are not necessarily enlightened. They just had an enlightening experience, but it didn't stick. But in that moment, you realize that everything is perfect.
Angel W (26:28.782)
Mm.
Angel W (26:32.206)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (26:39.395)
and everyone that are flawed are doing whatever they're doing perfectly. Everyone is making mistakes perfectly. Everyone has flaws which are happening perfectly. You're perfectly designed to have flaws. There are no mistakes in any of this.
Angel W (26:41.848)
Does that mean that every moment that we experience was in some way predetermined? Or do you believe that... I don't know what the alternative is, but because everything is perfect, does that mean it was like predetermined that way that this is meant to happen? Like for example, right now, this interview with you, me meeting you and talking to you right now.
Morgan O. Smith (27:25.529)
Yes and no, because...
Determination and free will are exactly the same thing. So you do have free will, you have free will, you're doing it right now, but free will is not any different than it being set in stone. They're both the same thing. So yes and no. All I can say to any answer that you give to me is yes and no. Yes, no, maybe and maybe not, they're all true.
Angel W (27:35.596)
Yeah, I think I like how last time when we were just chatting, you were saying like, everything is a paradox. So this is kind of what you mean when you say every answer is yes and no at the same time. But can you expand on that? Can you expand on why everything is a paradox?
Morgan O. Smith (27:57.807)
Everything's a paradox, yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (28:04.539)
Yeah, and everything in between.
Morgan O. Smith (28:12.113)
I don't know why everything's a paradox, but when you have that experience, there are no conflicts between two opposing sides. That's the pilot's design. There are no conflicts between two opposing sides. This is why it creates your human experience, so that when you're having a human experience where you see yourself as separate from everyone else,
in your mind, which is also part of a social condition, that one cannot be two things. It's like a person may say, you can't be a liar and a person who tells the truth. But sure you can. You can be very truthful in some things and you can be a liar in other things. But there's people who just can't buy that. Listen, that cannot be true. Or a person who says, a person who cheats can't be a good person. That's not 100 % true.
A person can be a good person, but their fly is cheating.
But of course if you look at that person, you may not see them as good person because they're a cheater. It doesn't mean they don't have any good qualities.
But that's hard for people to fathom. And that leads to arguments, that leads to controversy. That's hard for people to accept. To accept that means you have to accept a lot of other things that you may consider to be wrong and unethical. That's true. But it doesn't take away from the person being a good or a bad person. A racist could be a good person too. Their problem is though, they may not like black people, or they may not like Asians. It doesn't mean they're not good people.
Morgan O. Smith (29:53.873)
So it depends. And then you meet people who seem to be very off and terrible people. And those people may also have some good qualities. It all depends. It's not so simple. It's not so black and white. There's a lot of gray area. But in our social conditioning, we're not conditioned to accept any of that gray area. It's either black or white. But when you come to a realization, you realize that's not the truth. There is black and white, but there's a lot of gray in between and all that.
is a spectrum and all that needs to be explored. So if I'm dealing with someone who's difficult or someone who I don't particularly like, it doesn't mean that I have a hatred towards that person because I understand where the person is coming from. So in awakening, one of the things that may stick with you is you may have a deeper level of empathy. So as much as I may not like an individual, but I would say that I don't like an individual's actions, but I don't hate the individual themselves. I love the individual. I may not like their actions. But even if I'm
not on that person's side, even if I have a disagreement with that person, it doesn't mean that I'm not empathetic towards that person. I understand why that person is the way they are. And by me understanding why that person is, I have compassion. So these are things that can happen after an awakening, but that doesn't happen to everyone. It's different for different people. And if a person says that these are the characteristics of a person after having an awakening, well, they're still stuck in the framework of black and white, because that's not always the case.
So when someone has an awakening, if it sticks, some of those things, depending on the individual, some of those things should become a permanent thing for you. So I can look at the most evil person on the planet and I don't see the person as a fully evil person per se. I see the evil that's in that person. But I hang out with the person long enough, I may also see other qualities that may actually be good qualities.
Angel W (31:43.618)
Right, I guess like in our current society most people don't really think about awakening or like having spiritual goals or like reaching somewhere enlightenment per se that people yeah they're thinking more about achieving some sort of material success because that's more easier to understand for most people who haven't experienced an awakening like
Morgan O. Smith (31:49.595)
But this is controversial, you can't even have that conversation all the time with people. It'll just bite your head off. But that's where I stand.
Angel W (32:09.194)
What would you comment on that? Like, do you think that that's just like trying to achieve material success is kind of like an endless loop of trying to find fulfillment in that something that can't give you fulfillment?
Morgan O. Smith (32:10.959)
Most people don't know.
Morgan O. Smith (32:40.785)
That could be the case, but I have no problems with people chasing material goals. You're a human being, you're supposed to be human. If chasing material goals is part of it, that's part of it. But all I'm saying is that there's more. But I have no problems with people chasing their personal material goals. It's just, will it fulfill you? No. But you have to get to that point to figure that out for yourself.
Angel W (32:42.114)
but
Angel W (32:48.258)
Yeah, I guess what I'm asking is like, what is the thing that would fulfill a human in your perspective?
Angel W (33:10.39)
You mean, what is the only thing?
Morgan O. Smith (33:10.737)
A person who reaches their full potential as a human being, a one who has a type of awakening, that will fulfill you. It doesn't mean you won't stop chasing anything, but that will fulfill you. That will do it. I think it's the only thing that would do it.
Angel W (33:18.86)
And why is that?
Angel W (33:27.278)
you
Morgan O. Smith (33:28.591)
Having an awakening. Having an awakening will fulfill you.
Morgan O. Smith (33:37.391)
When you have an awakening and you realize that you're the absolute, what is there to get?
You're the absolute. There's nothing apart from you. There's nothing outside of you. You are absolutely everything in the entire universe and beyond. If you have that realization, how could you not be fulfilled?
Angel W (33:44.494)
right.
Morgan O. Smith (34:00.017)
You just have the realization that you are the absolute. You can only feel that you need fulfillment if there's something you feel that's missing. But after you have an awakening to that degree where you realize that you are the absolute. And I mean this literally, that you realize that you are the absolute. How could you not be fulfilled after an experience like that?
Angel W (34:11.426)
Hmm.
Morgan O. Smith (34:21.561)
if you truly had an experience of the absolute.
Angel W (34:22.478)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (34:27.995)
So after you have an experience like that, you realize there is nothing, there's nothing else to chase. You may come back to your individual body and still pursue goals. Right? But you know, you know in the back of your minds that all these things are temporary. You just know that. And you're just doing it because that's part of the game that you're playing. Right? But you have the realization that you are the absolute, the absolute. There's nothing in the world that can fulfill that void because that void is always, that void has always been full.
Angel W (34:32.76)
Yeah.
Angel W (34:54.126)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (34:57.297)
It's always been filled. So when you have an experience like that, that's why there are so many different types of awakenings. Because you can have an awakening and still have that feeling of the lack of fulfillment. But that's not what I'm speaking on. I'm speaking on when someone has the experience of being the absolute of the absolute.
Angel W (34:59.33)
Hmm.
That's interesting. Yeah, I think a lot of people will, I guess from what you said, it makes me think that there's two ways to, more than two ways, there's many ways to look at your goals. Some people look at their goals as a way to fulfill them, and then some people still, they go after the goals, but they're not...
it's they're not chasing them as a means of fulfillment and i've read about how people who are achieve like high levels of success they feel really empty and purposeless after and i think that relates to why it's because they were putting all this fulfillment in that goal and and then they find out that it never fulfilled them in the first place so i think it's nice to be reminded that
The things that we try to reach for is just part of the game, rather than a thing that will actually give us fulfillment. everything that's temporary doesn't give fulfillment.
Morgan O. Smith (36:08.689)
That's right.
Morgan O. Smith (36:27.939)
Yeah, but and that's why things are supposed to be temporary so that you can have that so you can experience the lack of fulfillment There is nothing wrong with not being fulfilled That's part of it. That's part of the journey too. God wants to experience that Because it's everything so if it's trying to experience the opposite of itself it wants to experience What it feels like to not be fulfilled? By achieving something It's doing that too. There's no there's no wrong way around this
Angel W (36:47.81)
So like when you have, I'm kind of imagining like an awakening experience, almost like waking up from a dream because like, you know, most of us are kind of like when you're in a dream, you just go along with it and you don't realize who you are, like that you're actually asleep and you don't get a glimpse of like the behind the scenes. And then like, I feel like an awakening is kind of like you get to wake up temporarily from the dream and see like.
Morgan O. Smith (36:57.763)
It's doing everything. It wants to have every experience that it could possibly have.
Angel W (37:14.87)
some of the truths that you might be missing inside the dream as a character.
Angel W (37:32.844)
Mmm.
Morgan O. Smith (37:36.091)
You could look at it that way. It's a metaphor that many people use. But I would say that when you wake up from the dream, you go back into the dream, but you start to lose your dream.
Angel W (37:44.664)
Right. And is that your, how you approach your life these days?
Morgan O. Smith (37:48.913)
Because in lucid dream you realize that you're awake in the dream. So that's what happens after a true awakening. You enter the dream, but it's a lucid dream. You realize that the whole thing is just a dream.
Angel W (38:01.71)
So you see your life as a lucid kind of dream.
Morgan O. Smith (38:06.962)
I don't try to approach it that way. That's just what it is from my standpoint. That's just a natural thing that just happened. I made no effort trying to see things that way.
Morgan O. Smith (38:19.761)
This is a lucid dream. Yeah, I'm dreaming the whole time. I'm just awake within the dream
Angel W (38:25.624)
Where do you think we go to then after we actually die? Like the real death?
Morgan O. Smith (38:28.601)
And it's nothing extraordinary, it's nothing like that. But it's just a realization that, this is a dream. Dream is a poor metaphor for all this, but, that is the best we got, right? So.
Angel W (38:43.052)
I mean, after.
Morgan O. Smith (38:47.813)
Well this is after death right now. The only reason why you exist now is because of your past life. So when you say where do you go to, what do mean? You're right here. Right? If reincarnation actually exists, then aren't you living a past life right now?
Angel W (38:51.992)
So, isn't there a point where we finish the reincarnation cycle? Where do we go after that?
Morgan O. Smith (39:14.287)
Who says you ever finished the reincarnation cycle?
Angel W (39:14.382)
I want to believe that that's the case.
Morgan O. Smith (39:19.247)
I'm playing with you here, but who says that that's- that's the case?
Morgan O. Smith (39:28.977)
We're talking about a belief system here.
Alright, you want to believe that's the case. You see the difference there? When someone wants to believe that's the case, doesn't make it true. Right? So when someone asks, what happens when that ends? When the whole cycle of reincarnation ends? What happens? Right? But one realizes that... Because what you're talking about is... You're talking about Samsara. Samsara is the cycle of death, birth and rebirth. Right? And the opposite of Samsara is Nirvana or Mukta. Right? But if one escapes Samsara...
and was into Moksha and was now in Moksha, is that non-duality? No, because he just escaped one for the other. That's not non-dual. Right? So if it's non-duality, there can't be any distinction between Moksha and Samsara. So if there are no distinctions between Moksha and Samsara, that means you never leave Samsara. Yet, you've left it. So you'll always exist as something else, because the universe itself is an ongoing thing. It never ends.
Angel W (40:18.638)
you
Morgan O. Smith (40:35.357)
So there's no end to that, from that standpoint. But one can, an individual can get to a point where they're having, that within the dream, they are free from samsara while they're still alive. That's true. But when you die, what are you dying to? Dying is not any different than living. Dying and living are exactly the same thing, because we're talking about something that's non-dual.
Angel W (41:00.366)
Hmm.
Morgan O. Smith (41:01.809)
So if dying and living is the same thing, you can never die and you can never be alive. If non-existence and existence are the same thing, you can never exist, you do.
Morgan O. Smith (41:15.897)
Right, so where do you go to? Well, you're doing it right now. You're here.
Right? You're speaking from the stamp. You're speaking from someone who already passed away. And here's your face. You're right here. But you're not just here. We can go even deeper that you're in different planes at the same time. All that's true too. But right now you're here. This is a result of your death.
Angel W (41:28.206)
interesting how is living and dying the same thing because to me i mean like uh huh
Morgan O. Smith (41:48.945)
Everything is non-dual. So there are no distinctions between anything. So that also must include life and death. Remember, this is where it gets tricky for people because people are not really, when I say that if there are no distinctions, it passes over people's heads. People are like, oh yeah, I get that, I get that. I was like, do you get it? Because if you really, really dive into that, you'll see how trippy that is. Right? So remember, there are no distinctions between anything. Right?
There can't be any distinctions between life and death. can't be any distinctions between up and down, left and right, subjective objective, male, female, sex, no sex, excitement, no excitement, boredom, excitement, entertainment, lack of entertainment, dumb, intelligent, advanced, basic, hot, cold.
Existence, non-existence, I've probably already said that one. The list goes on. There are no distinctions between anything. If one can comprehend that, then they know what it means to be God. There are no distinctions between time either. Past, present, and future is exact same thing.
but we're experiencing time momentarily. So you experience past, present, and future, but from a God standpoint, there is no past and future. It's all the same thing. Yet at the same time, it has the power to experience past, present, and future, but there are no distinctions between anything. So if there really is no distinction between anything, that also has to include life and death, death and rebirth.
Angel W (43:19.086)
Mm-hmm.
Morgan O. Smith (43:34.171)
so on and so on. There are no distinctions between a human being and a tiger. They're exactly the same thing. But from our view, from our perspective, because we're experiencing separation, we see something separate from us, which we may call a tiger. But from that standpoint, there are no differences between the tiger and a human being. It's the same thing. And there are no distinctions between space. So whatever is here and whatever's over there, if it's out in
Japan or whatever the case is, it's the same exact space. It's just you're experiencing time and space, so there's distance. But you're making that whole thing up. So you create distance so you can have the experience of moving from one end to another. But from God perspective, there is no distance. It's all exactly the same thing. So when I say that there are no distinctions, I mean this literally. There are no distinctions. Now, when you come back from that experience, there are distinctions. But what they're saying is that these distinctions
Angel W (44:19.726)
you
Morgan O. Smith (44:32.376)
is the illusion.
Morgan O. Smith (44:37.265)
But no one's ever going to be able to wrap their heads around that. Unless you have the experience itself where you actually literally have an ego death that realizes that there are no distinctions between anything. Everything in the entire universe and beyond is exactly the same thing. Small is the exact same size as large. An inch is the same exact length as the longest length. A short distance is exactly the same time as long distance. One foul is the exact same thing as the whole entire body.
and on and on and on and on. All exactly the same thing. This is why they refer to this as absolute monism. Monism meaning singularity. It's all one... Using the term one is the wrong term I should be using. But it's just one singularity. I want to say a huge singularity, but huge is the same size as tiny. So it's not huge and it's not tiny. You can't wrap your head around that. That's just impossible. But in the moment of enlightenment,
Angel W (45:19.832)
Yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (45:37.585)
You can comprehend that because you become comprehension itself. Comprehension sees itself as comprehension and there's nothing for it to understand because everything that it is, everything that it's trying to understand, it realizes that it's that too. So in this experience, you're not comprehending anything. You become comprehension itself. But comprehension is not any different from awakening. It's not any different than realization. It's not any different than ignorance. It's not any different than silence.
It's not any different than noise. It's not any different than thinking. It's not any different than non-thinking. It's not any different from stillness. And it's not any different from movement. It's all the same thing. So everything that is experienced or that can happen in existence or out of existence is all the same thing. All you have to do is remove distinctions. As simple as that sounds, you can't do it with an ego in place.
But that's what happens when in the moment of enlightenment you realize that at least in that state you realize that there are no distinctions between anything. But there are other types of awakening, lesser awakenings, where there are separations. And that's why in Vedanta they have dual schools too, where these dual schools they don't believe in non-duality. They believe that everything is dual. But they're absolutely right too.
Angel W (46:57.986)
What do you think is the most important realization you've had in your life?
Morgan O. Smith (47:01.753)
right, from that standpoint. But there are no distinctions between non-duality and there are no distinctions, there's no distinctions between non-duality and duality. It's also the same thing.
Angel W (47:07.758)
Mm.
Angel W (47:11.566)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (47:19.557)
That is the most important realization I have in my life. I am the absolute. You are the absolute. Everything is the absolute. That's the biggest realization. Everything is the absolute.
Morgan O. Smith (47:35.459)
I really mean absolute literally. Right? So there is nothing bigger than that. You are the absolute. mean, you know, people use the term absolute. wasn't that. That was the yeah. Absolutely correct. They don't really, really mean absolutely. Right. But in this in this context, I mean, absolute. I really mean that everything is an absolute. And when you have that realization, what could be bigger than an absolute?
Angel W (47:48.083)
Mmm, nothing.
Morgan O. Smith (48:05.955)
Nothing. Right? That's what I'm trying to convey that happened in this experience. Nobody's hearing me what I'm actually trying to say here. Right? Because it just goes over people's heads. So people ask that same question. What is the biggest realization you had? That is the biggest realization I've had. That everything is an absolute.
Angel W (48:12.91)
Hmm. How would it, how did it change how you live afterwards? did it just, you just kept living the same way after?
Morgan O. Smith (48:38.243)
In some sense, I kept living the same way after, but in another sense, I try to create other initiatives. I write a lot about this stuff, right? As you know, I have a blog and I try to write three times a week, or I'm just breaking down everything that you read. If you read everything from the blog, from the beginning to the end, I'm trying to tackle this thing from different perspectives. So right now, if you look on the blog, probably have. How many posts do I have? I have over 500.
I'm not sure if I hit 700 yet, but I'm over 500. So if you look at my blog post, I'm trying to tackle this thing from different angles as much as I can. I'll never be able to do that in my lifetime, but that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to tackle what I've experienced from different perspectives, from different standpoints. So every post that you read, I'm trying to tackle some different aspect of this thing that I've experienced or that I'm going through right now.
Angel W (49:12.832)
Are there other authors that are doing the same thing that you know of?
Angel W (49:20.546)
But I mean like that you believe that they've gone through the same thing when you read what they write. Like do you have any recommendations for like other teachers that you resonate with like that also have gone through the same experience?
Morgan O. Smith (49:32.261)
Yeah, there's other people. I've met other people who claim to have done the same thing.
Morgan O. Smith (49:51.781)
Let's just look at Ramana Maharshi and look at Osho and all those guys.
right? The Moojis and all those guys. The Andrew, the Andrew Coens. And the list goes on of all the different people. They're all trying to cover that too. The Papagies.
Morgan O. Smith (50:12.529)
the list goes on of all the different people, there's a lot of people. Right? This is why they made it their life's work. There's a reason why they put so much energy into that. They're trying to convey something that was so unbelievable that they know that the world will never believe them fully. There will always be some people that will listen and try to follow and try and it will be inspired to do the same thing. But the majority of the people will never try to hear it. But that's why they put their energies into that.
Angel W (50:26.158)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (50:41.443)
Also the Paramahamsa Vishwananda. So that's the other thing that I didn't explain like after using this brainwave entrainment. And don't get me wrong, brainwave entrainment, I was running these experiments back in the day, experimenting with brainwave entrainment in combination with psychedelics, that was the thing too. That's what broke me in. The combination of those two, but it was also the combinations of brainwave entrainment and yoga.
brainwave entrainment and acupuncture and brainwave entrainment in combination with tons of different things. in 2019, after all this work of brainwave entrainment, psychedelics, and also to like, I've done five-meal DMT. So people who talk about five-meal DMT, I can relate to what they're talking about as well. But in 2019,
I met with this spiritual guru out of Germany, name is Paramahamsa Vishwananda, and he gave me Darshan. And after he gave me Darshan, a few months after that, it's when I broke through to what I'm claiming to be 100 % absolute. This was after meeting this man.
Angel W (51:41.272)
What is Darshan?
Morgan O. Smith (51:58.075)
Darshan is a blessing, a blessing from a Guru when a Guru looks into your eyes. So when a Guru looks at you, he looks you directly in the eyes, that's Darshan. With the intention of blessing, whatever that blessing is for you.
Angel W (51:58.635)
so that you feel like that was one of the key things that helped you broke breakthrough that time.
Morgan O. Smith (52:19.441)
I know that it is only because after I said this, I know number of people that went to see him after I said this publicly on other podcasts and the same thing happened to them. I'm not sure if they had the absolute of the absolute, but they had their first awakening after meeting Paramahamsa Vishwananda. This happened to three other people that I know.
Angel W (52:27.086)
Is he still alive? Where is he now?
Angel W (52:40.91)
Where did you meet up with him?
Morgan O. Smith (52:44.401)
Oh yeah, he's still alive. He's like, he's around my age. He's probably younger than me. He's probably like, I'm 53, so he's probably like, 51 or 52 now. I've met with him, I've met with him probably 10 times now.
Morgan O. Smith (52:58.361)
in Toronto. He came to Toronto, think it was 2019, was September the third, or September the second of 2019 is when I met him. After I met him and the experience happened to me, so I met him in September, and then what happened to me happened in December, and then COVID hit. When COVID hit, he wasn't able to meet people personally, so I would meet with him with Darshan sessions online. So I met with him a number of times during COVID.
After COVID, I met with him three more times in person. So I met with him, last time I met with him was two years ago. I met him twice, two weeks apart, or one week apart. I him in Toronto and then I met him in New York.
Angel W (53:40.386)
wow, so does he live in Toronto or something? he travels a lot then.
Morgan O. Smith (53:48.081)
And the year prior to that, I him in Toronto. So three times after COVID. I'm meeting him again next month.
Angel W (53:52.012)
So next month he'll be in Toronto? Huh.
Morgan O. Smith (53:58.073)
No, he lives in Germany.
Morgan O. Smith (54:02.779)
He travels around the world giving people dark shit. Yeah.
Angel W (54:09.518)
Do you have to like buy a ticket or do you just like know him personally or like what kind of meeting is it?
Morgan O. Smith (54:09.635)
Mm-hmm. He'll also be in New York at some point. I think he's in New York this month, if I have it right. He's in New York this month, I believe. But he'll be in Toronto next month. Yeah, so I'll meet with him again then.
Angel W (54:27.896)
So is he like a white guy or like, I mean like what ethnicity is he?
Morgan O. Smith (54:29.219)
No, it's usually donation-based. This year people have to buy tickets, but the previous times I met him it was all donation-based. You can give a donation if you choose to.
Morgan O. Smith (54:46.257)
South Asian guy grew he was born in one of the countries in Africa He He How's it work he met his guru When he was around I Believe he was around 15 years old And by 16 years old he became a guru himself if I have the story if I have the story correct I probably have the story slightly wrong, but I believe he met his guru when he was 15 or 14
Angel W (55:05.506)
Wow, that's crazy. That's so young. Did you feel anything when you when he looked into your eyes? Did you feel anything different?
Morgan O. Smith (55:16.121)
and he became a guru himself by the age of 16. He's been one ever since.
Angel W (55:21.582)
Mm.
Morgan O. Smith (55:22.703)
Yeah, that's insane. But yeah, that's when he became a group.
Morgan O. Smith (55:31.217)
Yeah, it was very subtle, but when I walked away, my body started twitching. The same experience that happened after doing 5mL DMT. I've done 5mL DMT about 11 times. And the first few times that I was doing 5mL DMT, my body was going through a purge and I can feel... We call this kriya, where your body, your hands will make these gestures on its own without your personal thought.
and all that. And these things would happen. It's very strange when it happens. And it would happen for months. And at a certain point started to dissipate. But when I met him, the very first time, it started happening again. And it happened until I broke in December.
Angel W (56:02.702)
Are there any other psychedelics that you recommend or you do?
Morgan O. Smith (56:21.945)
I'm not recommending any of them. That's something a person has to decide to do for themselves. But what I've tried, I've Solicidin, of course, LSD, NMDMT, 5-Mio DMT. I've drank Ayahuasca, but Ayahuasca is NMDMT. I've done MET.
Angel W (56:33.294)
Mm.
Angel W (56:45.74)
Yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (56:46.161)
I think I'm missing something. I've done, I've done, I've done, I've done, um...
Either MDA or MDMA. Am I saying that right? I always get that wrong. But I've done one of the two. It's probably MDA I've tried. But yeah.
Angel W (56:56.994)
Yeah. like last, just being mindful of time, the last question is just like, is there anything else you want to share? Just to wrap everything up, anything that comes to mind.
Morgan O. Smith (57:08.443)
But those were the experiments that I was doing in combination with energy back in those days. I don't do psychedelics anymore.
Angel W (57:15.607)
Yeah.
Angel W (57:20.888)
Thank
Yeah.
Morgan O. Smith (57:26.115)
I don't know, I'd love to share everything, but... Right? I don't know. But if you have any questions, more than happy to answer them.
Angel W (57:32.046)
I've got a lot already from this conversation. I really enjoyed talking about your awakening and I'm sure maybe we'll do a second follow-up episode eventually but I think I've asked the questions I wanted to already and thank you so much for joining and yeah I'll link your website and everything in the notes, show notes.
Morgan O. Smith (57:37.947)
But don't have anything burning on my chest to express. But yeah, if you have any questions before we leave, I'm more than happy to answer them.
Morgan O. Smith (58:00.817)
It's a thing.
Angel W (58:05.4)
Sounds good. All right, hope you have a good one. I'll chat with you next time.
Morgan O. Smith (58:14.779)
sounds good. Then you can just throw in the link treat. That should cover everything.
Angel W (58:15.426)
Take care. Bye.
Morgan O. Smith (58:27.749)
Sounds good. Thank you, Angel.
Take care.
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